It’s ironic that you’re thinking about it – those are not crappy photos by the photographer’s standard, he/she/it just didn’t limit the imagination. Let’s just say, one man’s crappy photo is another’s holy grail.
ironic for me to think about it? on the contrary, not only i think about it, i embraced and accept it as a fact too.
from a business point of view, if i do not get the business and someone else did, i am happy for them because monies is circulating in the industry. this i understand and accept.
however, from a creative point of view, to me (and me only because who am i to say on behalf for all) if one expect the same amount of respect & creditability to the person, based on quality of work judged solely on the volume of business they get, sorry la, i’ll place them at the bottom of the cess pool.
trying to be or be “different” visually is not limiting one’s imagination (i personally think its great and would inspire), but in most cases, its more like “why don’t you use some common sense” why? i always believe
one can always talk their way around (crudely known as “talk cock”) verbally, but you cannot talk your way out, visually.
and earlier this evening, i learned something new from one of my students in my portraiture class – “there are no ugly people, just ugly photographs” which perfectly summarized the quote below perfectly
“why is it that some photographs have an ability to fascinate that can last a lifetime, while others seem to merit no more than a cursory glance ?”
in my little photography world, let’s just say – 1 man’s crappy photos is another man’s cursory glance.
Ah, then again, if one has zero creditability or reputation, how does he/she gets the volume of business? In the end, what keeps you in business – the businesses themselves or amount of creativity you have? And most of the local professional photographers I know today are turning themselves into educators, anyway.
The ironic part was that you champion the learning not of “traditional” way (eg: how to hold a camera properly), and here you are, asking why wouldn’t common sense be used more.
Ugly or not, it’s totally up to how each individual sees things. Which doesn’t really matter, because ultimately, our job as a paid photographer, is to make photographs which the payee would love. Not the general public, and some of the time not what you love. Hence, the “crappy” photos. Why should I care too much, business wise, if it’s crappy as long as the person paying is happy with it?
I’m pretty sure you had the same experience too (apologies if my assumption is wrong). Looking back at the very first few photographs you’ve made, which you were satisfied at that time, might not even worth a glance today. So, in my little photography world, let’s just say – one man’s crappy photo is another man’s holy grail. Probably the same man in different time line.
if you really want to find out how one with zero creditability or reputation to get the amount of volume of business in a set period of time – lets literally do a test for a week.
a. i shoot at the same rate as you charge with the same amount of photos for submission – rm100 for 5 photos per session excluding makeup. level of quality of photos – if you dont mind, i do it as what i am currently doing now because i don’t know how to achieve what you are doing now (i dont know how to use lightroom) how many hours do you, on average, do you complete your set? for 5 photos with 1 look, i can do it in 30mins regardless of settings nor location.
AND
b. you shoot at the same rate as i am charging – my current rate is at rm350 per hour x min 8 hours block excluding makeup and studio rates(if required). 20 photos for submission per shoot. level of quality photos – as what you are doing now.
c. genre – portraiture, it can be thematic or environmental. for non commercial use (meaning specifically not for profit usage by the client). at rm350 per hour, your submission could. if i am shoot at rm100 for a whole set, definitely not for commercial usage.
c. location – anywhere
d. if you do not have the necessary platform, i can help you publicise on my fb group for this little test of ours
hopefully this exercise would have the opportunity to show you what you were asking. are you up for it? my email is joe@photicsproduction.com – we’ll discuss on how we will set the details up.
and with reference to the ironic stuffs – if you think by not holding a camera the proper way is to champion learning the non traditional way, i think you might misunderstand what i am championing as a whole. i cater for hobbyist – ultimately what i am trying to bring across – in order to shoot what you want to achieve, there should be a balance. and part of this process is literally using your common sense. its not rocket science. i know because i being through it before. and to me, its not a “way” or anything “traditional” to it – if you have a think about it – its a process, a discipline that will be an instinct when you shoot.
specifically – the “use some common sense” bit is actually for this in ur 1st comment “those are not crappy photos by the photographer’s standard, he/she/it just didn’t limit the imagination.” – and now i, since i have the opportunity to share my thoughts with you, i have decided to champion using our common sense WHEN one tries to not limit their imagination and fail epically. i hope you realised the meaning of the term “why limit your imagination?” is a 2 edge sword. the term was coined to encourage hobbyist photographers to explore their visual creativity without hesitation. some benefited from it as a form of confidence boost, some unfortunately benefited from it negatively, made their work look silly (not limiting their imagination huh?). hence – why dont you use some common sense?
if you are referring to commercial work – that 3rd paragraph is acceptable, BUT if you do not know (or limit knowledge) how to translate visually what the “payee” wants, then you are ultimately screwed. dont believe me, try getting a commercial job and have fun reading the creative brief. the ironic thing about the whole process is not just taking the required shots – its the time management and how to control the situation in a specific duration of time that is a challenge.
if you are referring to commission portraiture type of work which i normally do, then that 3rd paragraph is something i want to disassociate with. i am a portraiture photographer, not a portraiture photocopy machine. i do have request from customers who wants photos like Lindbergh’s or Bailey’s AND with a budget price, so i politely told them i am not a photocopy machine and if they really want those type of photos, ask these photographer’s instead.
i do not “document” my shots, i plan, stage and shoot my sets. by saying that, i have the opportunity to let each of my customers see what they like, through what i interpret visually in my photos. thats what they are paying for, they are not paying me rm350 per hour to click on the button. thats what i am championing for hobbyist photographer who come to my class. its NOT learning how to hold the camera right and other technical stuffs (those they can learn for free, on their own with or without a teacher)
i do care very much on what i shoot, business wise. thats because i believe in my work and i have a very strong pride, photographically. i believe in balance – good business sense, being compliant of standards and creativity.
yes i being through the same experience glancing to my earlier work when i am a serious hobbyist. i have being laughed at for portraits that i shot (imagine half lighted face, non smiley, lotsa clothes on and out of focus in circa 2004), epic fail colour management, photographic wise techni]cally royally screwed, i was stubborn and i had big photographic ego back then. to be honest, i love almost all my older portraiture shots. not only i keep looking at them, i kept on revisiting and reprocess them (check the canon 300D, canon 30D tags – i posted some that i reprocessed – the ones tagged with canon 5D, 5D MK II, 1D MK II were all when i shot fulltime). i missed the innocence of taking these shots. carefree and i really miss the “i dont give a f*ck” attitude. i took risks for shots BUT in all fairness, i gave a lot of thought and planning (although i have zero experience back then). nowadays, i am more careful for commercial work. on my own private time, i stopped worrying about my techniques and trying to rediscover the innocence of making pictures. i am what i am now because of back then. i am still trying to “push the envelope”.
in summary, the subliminal message of “crappy photos get paid more” is literally this (if you are still wondering) – on creativity side of stuff, please dont expect the amount of respect and creditability i would give to a peer if the person shoots like crap, (and i miss this out) acts like a world champion because volume of business.
and just in case if you or any other people who is reading this and think i may be talking cock, below is my brief selected experience (its a way for me to qualify what i wrote above) -
i started shooting as a hobbyist in 2002, i have being shooting portraiture (almost exclusively) for women since 2004 and being shooting fulltime (i part own photics production) since late 2008
selected assignments –
a. private commissions portraiture sessions – i shoot all types of women in sizes, shape and age – ongoing
b. models (catwalk / print / tvc) comp cards / portfolio / portfolio refresh] – ongoing
c. portraiture classes for hobbyist – ongoing
d. rebelz.com 2010 – catalogue
e. jaya jusco 2009 – spread for hari raya catalogue
f. bachi 2009 – fashion spread
g. wedding isle 2009 – bridal gowns spread]
h. posh project 2009 – catalogue / fashion spread
i. shu uemera malaysia editorial 2008
a. Ford’s Model Supermodel Search – Malaysia 2009
b. Harper Baazar’s editorial June, July, August 2009
c. Honda Malaysia Perfectionist campaign 2009
d. Xixili intimates catalog 2009
e. KL Fashion Week 2008 – designer’s profile / editorial 2008
That’s sure a long reply. Unfortunately I don’t have thaaaaaat long list of work to showcase. But still, game on, check your email. Sounds like a fun exercise – and potential great blog post.
likewise when it comes to blogging.. =)
It’s ironic that you’re thinking about it – those are not crappy photos by the photographer’s standard, he/she/it just didn’t limit the imagination. Let’s just say, one man’s crappy photo is another’s holy grail.
joyce,
ironic for me to think about it? on the contrary, not only i think about it, i embraced and accept it as a fact too.
from a business point of view, if i do not get the business and someone else did, i am happy for them because monies is circulating in the industry. this i understand and accept.
however, from a creative point of view, to me (and me only because who am i to say on behalf for all) if one expect the same amount of respect & creditability to the person, based on quality of work judged solely on the volume of business they get, sorry la, i’ll place them at the bottom of the cess pool.
trying to be or be “different” visually is not limiting one’s imagination (i personally think its great and would inspire), but in most cases, its more like “why don’t you use some common sense” why? i always believe
one can always talk their way around (crudely known as “talk cock”) verbally, but you cannot talk your way out, visually.
and earlier this evening, i learned something new from one of my students in my portraiture class – “there are no ugly people, just ugly photographs” which perfectly summarized the quote below perfectly
“why is it that some photographs have an ability to fascinate that can last a lifetime, while others seem to merit no more than a cursory glance ?”
in my little photography world, let’s just say – 1 man’s crappy photos is another man’s cursory glance.
Ah, then again, if one has zero creditability or reputation, how does he/she gets the volume of business? In the end, what keeps you in business – the businesses themselves or amount of creativity you have? And most of the local professional photographers I know today are turning themselves into educators, anyway.
The ironic part was that you champion the learning not of “traditional” way (eg: how to hold a camera properly), and here you are, asking why wouldn’t common sense be used more.
Ugly or not, it’s totally up to how each individual sees things. Which doesn’t really matter, because ultimately, our job as a paid photographer, is to make photographs which the payee would love. Not the general public, and some of the time not what you love. Hence, the “crappy” photos. Why should I care too much, business wise, if it’s crappy as long as the person paying is happy with it?
I’m pretty sure you had the same experience too (apologies if my assumption is wrong). Looking back at the very first few photographs you’ve made, which you were satisfied at that time, might not even worth a glance today. So, in my little photography world, let’s just say – one man’s crappy photo is another man’s holy grail. Probably the same man in different time line.
if you really want to find out how one with zero creditability or reputation to get the amount of volume of business in a set period of time – lets literally do a test for a week.
a. i shoot at the same rate as you charge with the same amount of photos for submission – rm100 for 5 photos per session excluding makeup. level of quality of photos – if you dont mind, i do it as what i am currently doing now because i don’t know how to achieve what you are doing now (i dont know how to use lightroom) how many hours do you, on average, do you complete your set? for 5 photos with 1 look, i can do it in 30mins regardless of settings nor location.
AND
b. you shoot at the same rate as i am charging – my current rate is at rm350 per hour x min 8 hours block excluding makeup and studio rates(if required). 20 photos for submission per shoot. level of quality photos – as what you are doing now.
c. genre – portraiture, it can be thematic or environmental. for non commercial use (meaning specifically not for profit usage by the client). at rm350 per hour, your submission could. if i am shoot at rm100 for a whole set, definitely not for commercial usage.
c. location – anywhere
d. if you do not have the necessary platform, i can help you publicise on my fb group for this little test of ours
hopefully this exercise would have the opportunity to show you what you were asking. are you up for it? my email is joe@photicsproduction.com – we’ll discuss on how we will set the details up.
and with reference to the ironic stuffs – if you think by not holding a camera the proper way is to champion learning the non traditional way, i think you might misunderstand what i am championing as a whole. i cater for hobbyist – ultimately what i am trying to bring across – in order to shoot what you want to achieve, there should be a balance. and part of this process is literally using your common sense. its not rocket science. i know because i being through it before. and to me, its not a “way” or anything “traditional” to it – if you have a think about it – its a process, a discipline that will be an instinct when you shoot.
specifically – the “use some common sense” bit is actually for this in ur 1st comment “those are not crappy photos by the photographer’s standard, he/she/it just didn’t limit the imagination.” – and now i, since i have the opportunity to share my thoughts with you, i have decided to champion using our common sense WHEN one tries to not limit their imagination and fail epically. i hope you realised the meaning of the term “why limit your imagination?” is a 2 edge sword. the term was coined to encourage hobbyist photographers to explore their visual creativity without hesitation. some benefited from it as a form of confidence boost, some unfortunately benefited from it negatively, made their work look silly (not limiting their imagination huh?). hence – why dont you use some common sense?
if you are referring to commercial work – that 3rd paragraph is acceptable, BUT if you do not know (or limit knowledge) how to translate visually what the “payee” wants, then you are ultimately screwed. dont believe me, try getting a commercial job and have fun reading the creative brief. the ironic thing about the whole process is not just taking the required shots – its the time management and how to control the situation in a specific duration of time that is a challenge.
if you are referring to commission portraiture type of work which i normally do, then that 3rd paragraph is something i want to disassociate with. i am a portraiture photographer, not a portraiture photocopy machine. i do have request from customers who wants photos like Lindbergh’s or Bailey’s AND with a budget price, so i politely told them i am not a photocopy machine and if they really want those type of photos, ask these photographer’s instead.
i do not “document” my shots, i plan, stage and shoot my sets. by saying that, i have the opportunity to let each of my customers see what they like, through what i interpret visually in my photos. thats what they are paying for, they are not paying me rm350 per hour to click on the button. thats what i am championing for hobbyist photographer who come to my class. its NOT learning how to hold the camera right and other technical stuffs (those they can learn for free, on their own with or without a teacher)
i do care very much on what i shoot, business wise. thats because i believe in my work and i have a very strong pride, photographically. i believe in balance – good business sense, being compliant of standards and creativity.
yes i being through the same experience glancing to my earlier work when i am a serious hobbyist. i have being laughed at for portraits that i shot (imagine half lighted face, non smiley, lotsa clothes on and out of focus in circa 2004), epic fail colour management, photographic wise techni]cally royally screwed, i was stubborn and i had big photographic ego back then. to be honest, i love almost all my older portraiture shots. not only i keep looking at them, i kept on revisiting and reprocess them (check the canon 300D, canon 30D tags – i posted some that i reprocessed – the ones tagged with canon 5D, 5D MK II, 1D MK II were all when i shot fulltime). i missed the innocence of taking these shots. carefree and i really miss the “i dont give a f*ck” attitude. i took risks for shots BUT in all fairness, i gave a lot of thought and planning (although i have zero experience back then). nowadays, i am more careful for commercial work. on my own private time, i stopped worrying about my techniques and trying to rediscover the innocence of making pictures. i am what i am now because of back then. i am still trying to “push the envelope”.
in summary, the subliminal message of “crappy photos get paid more” is literally this (if you are still wondering) – on creativity side of stuff, please dont expect the amount of respect and creditability i would give to a peer if the person shoots like crap, (and i miss this out) acts like a world champion because volume of business.
and just in case if you or any other people who is reading this and think i may be talking cock, below is my brief selected experience (its a way for me to qualify what i wrote above) -
i started shooting as a hobbyist in 2002, i have being shooting portraiture (almost exclusively) for women since 2004 and being shooting fulltime (i part own photics production) since late 2008
selected assignments –
a. private commissions portraiture sessions – i shoot all types of women in sizes, shape and age – ongoing
b. models (catwalk / print / tvc) comp cards / portfolio / portfolio refresh] – ongoing
c. portraiture classes for hobbyist – ongoing
d. rebelz.com 2010 – catalogue
e. jaya jusco 2009 – spread for hari raya catalogue
f. bachi 2009 – fashion spread
g. wedding isle 2009 – bridal gowns spread]
h. posh project 2009 – catalogue / fashion spread
i. shu uemera malaysia editorial 2008
selected assignments as 1st assistant (i am the light bitch in the crew) for 807studio ( http://www.807studio.com | http://www.modelmayhem.com/834679 )
a. Ford’s Model Supermodel Search – Malaysia 2009
b. Harper Baazar’s editorial June, July, August 2009
c. Honda Malaysia Perfectionist campaign 2009
d. Xixili intimates catalog 2009
e. KL Fashion Week 2008 – designer’s profile / editorial 2008
That’s sure a long reply. Unfortunately I don’t have thaaaaaat long list of work to showcase. But still, game on, check your email. Sounds like a fun exercise – and potential great blog post.
heh, thats the spirit. i be waiting – joe@photicsproduction.com